User talk:Cimon Avaro/archive 5

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This is the User talkpage of Cimon avaro; here you can leave comments to that user.

Older talk[edit]

You can find older talk which he has received and perhaps responded to on the following pages:

Please edit only below this line:

The Mother Teresa article is currently protected so I don't think it is a good idea to edit it right now. I've reverted your change and noted it on the talk page so it may be made once the protection is removed. Angela 16:41, 12 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Lol. They do?? I didn't think I was scary. Angela

Thanks for the protection. I'd hit the three reverts limit. Angela 02:23, 16 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Thanks for your note on the pump. -- BCorr ¤ Брайен 04:13, 17 Nov 2003 (UTC)

I just read your user page which entertained me quite a bit. I was fascinated by the origins of your user name. You sound like an extremely interesting and intelligent guy and are an extremely valuable contributer. Keep up the good work and best wishes. Alexandros 00:26, 18 Nov 2003 (UTC) (whose name origins are not quite as interesting)

Hi, Thanks for undeleting Tamil literature. I will just put in whatever I have written by today, my time KRS 10:38, 20 Nov 2003 (UTC)

I would like to express a heartfelt thanks to: Κσυπ Cyp , Cimon Avaro on a pogostick, snoyes, Adam Bishop , Secretlondon, Hephaestos , , Jamesday, Pakaran for nominating me and supporting me. It is encouraging to know that my efforts over the past 6 months have been appreciated. I prize your actions all the more knowing that many of you were not familiar with my work and had to do some research to decide whether to support me or not (because I limit my contributions to the 750 business/economics articles) . Thank you for the time, the effort, and the confidence.

There was a minority that did not support me because of my name. It seems that half have a problem because they read “shat” into it and half because of the word “god”. I find this amazing. The people that read “shat” into the character string had to ignore the commonly used word “hat” and pick out a word that has not been in common use for more than a century. My spell checker is currently telling me that the word dosn’t exist. One complainant insisted on converting “Monad” into “gonads” and “Excrescent” into “excrement”. Another saw “a dog eating a bone” as a sexual act. All I can say to these people is “Get professional help”.

As for changing my name, I have decided not to do that for two reasons. One is a philosophical reason. For an explanation, read The Crucible, particularly where John Proctor declares the importance of your name. The price of adminship is too high. The other reason is a practical one. I find it useful to use the same name on all my online activities. It is interesting that two universities and several commercial sites don’t have a problem with my name. Maybe it is not all that surprising since they are not inhabited by trolls trying to forward their cause.

Hope to see you around the business/economics pages in the future. mydogategodshat 03:05, 22 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Finnish Wikipedia[edit]

Thanks for the notice! Jos minulla sattuu olemaan aikaa perjantaina niin tulen kyllä auttamaan. -- Jniemenmaa 19:23, 26 Nov 2003 (UTC)

It's kind of too bad MyRedDice deleted your attack on me at Wikipedia:Protected page, because I thought it was pretty clever. --The Cunctator 06:28, 29 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Right. Just so you know, I have no problem with you, only with your actions. -- Cimon Avaro on a pogostick 08:15, Nov 29, 2003 (UTC)

Hello Cimon. Just to know, why did you not respond to my question ? Anthère 08:23, 29 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Um. It might help if you told me which question. In a more general manner, without wishing to offend; there is a Finnish proverb, which I have added to wikiquote, which states that "One fool asks more questions than ten wise men can spare time answering." Again, this is not against you, but I am genuinely puzzled which question, and where do you mean? -- Cimon Avaro on a pogostick 09:14, Nov 29, 2003 (UTC)

that is a nice proverb :-)

It is in Wikipedia:Requests for adminship.

No need to go, I copy it here

It came from a comment from Heph It is worth pointing out also that when questions were raised about The Cunctator's behavior in the edit war, the main reasoning behind his remarks in his own defense were along the lines that different rules should apply to administrators than apply to other users.

My question was Out of curiosity, where is that proposition that sysops and non sysops should follow different rules Cimon ? What does it consist in ? Is it just in a talk page or is there a meta page mentionning it ? ant

I think (please forgive me if I am in error) this is out of context. I think I will place some words in the original page. -- Cimon Avaro on a pogostick 18:12, Nov 29, 2003 (UTC)

Since you have been following the debate, I thought you could tell me. That is...on the fr wiki, we are rather currently following different patterns as regard making people sysop. We try to favor a rather small number of sysops, rather than what is done on en, which is trying to favor the sysoping quite quickly. We have numerous very trusted people who are not sysops. And I trust all sysops because I know them. There are so many sysops on en, noone can know all of them, and trust all of them. It really looks like there are two populations; so the idea of different rules does not appear so strange to me. I felt different things applied to me when I was not, even if I nearly never use them here. Sysops are certainly requested to behave more strictly than non sysops, so that is a rule in itself. If there was a discussion about this, i would be interested by reading people opinion.

Right. No sysop should fail to be worthy of my trust. But when they do, I would not be doing right by ignoring it! -- Cimon Avaro on a pogostick 18:12, Nov 29, 2003 (UTC)

Aside from that, be careful to write my name anthere or anthère or ant as you prefer, but not anthére. Not to be a pain, but there are some anthére on other wikipedia, who are not me, but anti-me. So... :-)

have a good day Cimon

Too <expletive> late. It is not your fault, or anyones, but I have just had the worst day of at least this year. (Foggy, hungover, received and signed eviction notice etc.) -- Cimon Avaro on a pogostick 18:12, Nov 29, 2003 (UTC)

I am deeply sorry for you. Perhaps you will also have a hangover today as well. :-( Anthère 11:58, 30 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Would it be worth someone nominating Mydogategodshat again? I was thinking of writing something along the lines of "Excellent contributions, and this user has now shown that he will not give up his ideals (submission to seemingly irrational orders to change username) in order to gain more power (adminship). This demonstrates that he is unlikely to abuse or be corrupted by admin powers.". But I decided a potential second nomination would probably be better by someone other than me, though. (Asking a few people this.) Κσυπ Cyp   13:11, 29 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Have you ever started to consider that maybe I may not know all Monthy Python jokes in english ? And that what is a joke for you, does not represent anything to me ? That instead of trying to lighten the atmosphere by making a joke to indicate to me I must not take your comments personnaly (which was very nice of you to do), I could read the so-called joke just as an attack (hence reading all your comments as criticism) ?

I know not Monthy Python english jokes Cimon. I am open to humour, only when I understand it was meant to be humour. Please next time, be heavy in your writting, and place the comment unto

<joke>Funny comment</joke> <-----eh, Anthere, watch out, this a joke, right, laugh Anthere (or ask me where is the fun ?)

thanks and sorry

out of interest, is it you who suggested that we wrote about monty python in starting something on Michael Palin on fr yesterday ? :-)

Sorry, no, must be someone else with a sick sense of humor :-)

Thanks, it's nice to be appreciated! Yes, dire, wasn't it? I've been meaning to fix it for a while, and finally got drawn into doing it by trying to sort out the equally ghastly Irene Pepperberg (the article, I mean - Irene's ok herself, just a bit fierce in her response to any criticism of Alex). The whole comparative psychology and animal cognition area in wiki is pretty awful, but I don't have time to do more than tinker with it... it would help if we actually had an animal cognition page in the first place. seglea 09:02, 11 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Thank you for supporting my request for adminship. Bmills 08:55, 18 Dec 2003 (UTC)

You understand of course that we all have an ulterior motive in wanting to have as many sysops as possible. Less work all around. Speaking of which, I haven't really excercised my own sysop power nearly at all in the last few days, not even deleting a "asdfjkl" test. I fear the Finnish Wikipedia is starting to exert some pull on me. In any case, congratulations! -- Jussi-Ville Heiskanen 09:24, Dec 18, 2003 (UTC)

again another wikipedian wearing hat... :-)

Mother Teresa[edit]

Just a quick note that I'm withdrawing from the article for a month. I don't have all day to deal with the likes of Gbog and Jtdirl. I have some long term plans to address this problem, so I don't care much about the temporary state of the article. If you want to continue the fight against evil, you know where to go.—Eloquence

Dear Cimon Avaro. I am the Evil. And the Evil is humbly askking you to explain your unexplained revert. Thanks gbog 17:30, 21 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Well, since you have deigned to notice my existence...

I am really sorry sorry if I have been rude to you. I didn't see many comments from you on talk page. Once, you said something to me and I answered. Have I deigned you? In those long pages, I have surely missed your appeals to me.
Me again. I'm wondering if didn't miss one of your contrib to talk:MT. seeing this [1], I see a (to gbog) line, but it is not very easy to find in the long page. I would like a (diff) tool here on user contrib pages. Does this exist? gbog

Eloquence may well be more evil than you. His hopes of me defending his views about MT are laughable...

I know.

I only defend truth. I will not defend good even if I knew what it was...

That is great. How lucky you are to know what is truth. Would you explain me where you did find it? I personnally have many difficulties to know what is truth, with the debatable exception of 1+1=2. (I know what is real, and that suffice to my daily life, don't worry for me.)

Thanks for spotting Use talk:Angela! I've deleted it now. Angela. 19:34, Jan 12, 2004 (UTC)

Hi, I noticed your vote against Gene for brilliant prose. If you find it systemically deficient, I guess I won't try to make any changes, because I think it's quite good overall, but if there were specific areas for improvement you could name, I might be able to do something about them. Care to make any suggestions? 168... 01:07, 13 Jan 2004 (UTC)

It was Israel in my case. I suppose I'll be mentioned on the mailing list soon. Fame at last.:) Of course, I also put in quotes from the Road Map which used the word terrorism, so I suppose someone on the Palestinian side will condemn me as well, eventually.:) Jamesday 14:50, 13 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Hi. Look what I did! Don't be mad, k? I figured it was better than nothing, and Ed told me to take my problems there, so... let me know what you think? JackLynch 12:30, 15 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Thanks! JackLynch 21:23, 15 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Hello :-) please read this [2] if you are not registered to the ml. Thanks Anthere

The trouble with "conflict between..." is that it just degenerates into a circular bitchfest, and so rarely reaches a conclusion. I think most of the folks listed there are convinced that a small clique of activist loonies are hounding them, and that the corpus-wikipediae would be right behind them, if only it knew of the situation (sometimes they're right, most times they're wrong). Only a vote clarifies matters, and the only "who's good/who's bad" voting pages we have are bans and admin/deadmin. We also seem to have lots of mechanisms for chastising bad wikipedians (of whom there really are never more than a handful at any given time) but very little means of praising the ongoing good work of the selfless many. Frankly, Wik's nomination of "notorious problem user" Angela turned out to be really very touching. Boils need to be lanced. -- Finlay McWalter 01:46, 22 Jan 2004 (UTC)

You've got mail![edit]

I have agreed to arbitration in Wikipedia:Requests for mediation. -- Mr-Natural-Health 05:11, 22 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Hello Cimon. I think there is a problem with the email adress you provided. The mails are being delayed. Anthere

switch to yahoo :-) ant

You've got mail![edit]

As I have a life, I obviously have a limited amount of time available to spend on this process. Beyond a job, running a 75 page health accredited web site, I run a Yahoo Mailing list where I comment on the latest health research, or about 2 studies a day, 365 days of the year.

I have already stated my position on numerous occasions, in numerous different places. And, my editing activities have been well documented in page history. Likewise, the editing tactics of RK and the others are well documented with the exception that RK, or somebody else, has selectively deleted some of their editing activities from page history.

I originally declined because of my perception that it would only be another structured way to waste more of my limited time. On my mailing list and website, I can actually get work done. In this place, everyone is editing the same stuff over and over again in a never ending circle.

If Theresa Knott can demonstrate that something tangible will come out of the process that wont be deleted 100% the first opportunity that these people get, I would be happy to cooperate in the mediation process.

From my viewpoint, alternative medicine is a meaningless place holder top node article that should contain a minimal amount of text. If we can place the links to the branches of alternative medicine in a separate article so that others can add links to new branches as they please the text portion of alternative medicine can then be permanently protected. The problem is that these people have a perverse need to add baseless POV criticism on virtually every line of text in alternative medicine. All the attacks and support should be placed individually in the respective articles that deal with each specific branch of alternative medicine rather than in the place holder top node article called Alternative medicine.

If something tangible like this can be accomplished then, I would be happy to cooperate in the mediation process. -- Mr-Natural-Health 14:40, 22 Jan 2004 (UTC)

You've got mail![edit]

As far as problems with wikipedia as a community and the individuals there of goes, I wish to proceed directly to arbitration so that the wrong doers can be identified and reprimanded.

As far as the mediation of Alternative medicine goes, I presume that these are the choices?

Angela - angela AT
Anthere - anthere8 AT
Cimon Avaro - jheiskan "AT" welho "DOT" com
Dante Alighieri
Ed Poor - Edmund.W.Poor AT
Ldan - Daniel Ehrenberg" littledanehren AT
llywrch Geoff Burling - llywrch AT
sannse sannse AT
Stevertigo - utilitymuffinresearch2 AT
User:TUF-KAT - Chair - tucci528 AT

Ed Poor is not available thank goodness! I have had contact with Angela, so she is not acceptable to me. None of the others have butted into any of my conversations and activities on Wikipedia. So, any of them are acceptable to me. -- Mr-Natural-Health 01:05, 23 Jan 2004 (UTC)


All of the mediators are acceptable to me. - UtherSRG 05:17, 23 Jan 2004 (UTC)

matter regarding alternative medicine mediation[edit]

On my talk page you wrote: "You have indicated that you have a specific matter regarding alternative medicine about which you wish to enter into mediation. Who would you designate as the person, or persons against whom you have the conflict in that case?"

Apparently, my last message to you was not perfectly clear. I will clarify it both here, as well as in my response to the arbitration.

I, Mr-Natural-Health, requested to Jussi-Ville Heiskanen that:
A)the issue of "alternative medicine and a number of related articles" continue to be resolved by mediation, while
B)the alleged "conflicts between users" narrowly defined to work on "alternative medicine and a number of related articles" be resolved directly by arbitration; so that the historical facts can speak directly for themselves.

Thus, I would designate Theresa Knott as she filed the original request for mediation which I wish to continue with per the above restrictions. -- Mr-Natural-Health 18:11, 23 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Any of the mediators are fine by me. theresa knott 09:26, 25 Jan 2004 (UTC)

I am ready for the mediation to begin.[edit]

-- Mr-Natural-Health 04:19, 27 Jan 2004 (UTC)

You seem grumpy[edit]

Why do you hate on me? Can we talk it out? Jack 05:46, 27 Jan 2004 (UTC)

If you are an inclusionist... this vote may interest you. Cheers, Jack 11:11, 29 Jan 2004 (UTC)

adminship and parrots[edit]

Thanks for the advice to look at the adminship page (not a place I've ever visited before) - I've gladly accepted that.

Thanks for drawing the parrot story to my attention - I hadn't heard about it (for good reasons, as it turns out), but I have investigated. The parrot is called N'kisi not T'kisi, and it has been all over the magazines so I guess we ought to have an article about it - or rather a note about it on the African Gray Parrot page. It's entirely plausible that an African Gray has a large vocabulary, though (a) it is another and much more difficult thing to show that it uses it in a truly language-like way and (b) I'd want to hear what Irene Pepperberg has to say about the methodology of the study. Irene is a serious scientist, and her parrots - chiefly Alex - have certainly done a number of language-like things (though I am afraid even her methodology is not sceptic proof - the birds will not work without her about and that opens the door wide to Clever Hans effects. But the only claim of a peer-reviewed study on the N'kisi bird is in a fringe journal devoted to things that are too whacky for the mainstream journals to consider, and until something appears in a solider outlet, I would be deeply sceptical. And the association with Rupert Sheldrake is enough to make most biologists and |comparative psychologists sigh with dismay. Frankly, N'kisi's owner would be much better occupied trying to do an independent replication of Irene Pepperberg's work than in trying to demonstrate telepathy. seglea 07:43, 2 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Your OMA membership[edit]

Hi Cimon avaro, and welcome to the Office of Members' Advocates. As the de-facto interim coordinator I've added a link to your talk page on the talk page of the association; if you want to add any more contact information that you feel comfortable with please do so. I've started writing a few other pages and if you want to contribute to any of those pages or do some editing that would be great. Once we have a few more members we might try to have a membership meeting to discuss how we might act as a group or help each other with our new-found volunteer role. — Alex756 [ talk] 04:12, 9 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Press release[edit]

meta:Wikimedia's first press release is ready if you still want to create the Finnish version. We will be reaching 500,000 by Monday 23 February. --mav 09:51, 22 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Thanks for the notice. We will be putting our press release out directly as soon as we update it, and give it a final polish. We shall probably send it out as E-mail in the next few hours to those communication media whose news-cycle for today has already passed, with the note that it is free for publication only on Monday. This does not guarantee, that they might not put it out on their instant web-pages, but then the page is "public" on the finnish wiki itself in a manner of speaking. -- Cimon Avaro on a pogostick 12:39, Feb 22, 2004 (UTC)

Number pages[edit]


I would like you to reconsider your vote on the inclusion of articles about numbers on Wikipedia. I am not opposed to number articles per se, but I am opposed to the trivial cultural properties which have been heaped upon many of these articles.

My rationale is that numbers are such a fundamental part of human culture, an article that lists all these associations would have proportions probably larger than all of Wikipedia taken together. To give you an example, Google returns 209,000,000 hits for the number 100 alone.

Please take a look at 1 (number)#Other fields. This is the type of lists I am referring to. Right now the article arbitrarily lists a few things where the number one has some significance: a DVD region, a personality test, a slang term (Wikipedia is not a dictionary), American currency, a single dial code, several roads ...

If you think this information is valuable I am probably wasting my time. But I hope that after looking at several of these pages you will agree that these kind of lists make a joke of Wikipedia. They will always be arbitrary, they will always be in violation of the rules of Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not (list repository, dictionary), and they will seriously damage our reputation.

If you see a compromise option which is not currently included in the poll, please add it. But please do not give these triva lists your rubber stamp of approval.—Eloquence 11:14, Feb 22, 2004 (UTC)

Although, as you can see directly above your message, I am quit busy right now; I will give your view serious consideration. My mind I shall make up for myself, though (as always). -- Cimon Avaro on a pogostick 12:39, Feb 22, 2004 (UTC)

Playboy disclaimer[edit]

You're probably right, but yr edit of Playboy seems to have had no visible effect. -- Jerzy 17:43, 2004 Feb 23 (UTC)

--- Cimon,

Please see the comment at list of cryptographers.



Thanks for the kind words on my Talk page. RickK 16:26, 25 Feb 2004 (UTC)


I regret to see that you resigned from the Association of Members' Advocates. I don't know the reasons for your decision, and I respect whatever choice you make. I just wanted to call your attention to the fact that some of the material posted on the AMA page at the time you resigned did not reflect the views of the association, and arguably constituted "trolling". If this caused your resignation, I wanted you to know that it has been removed, and we are trying to prevent future abuse of the page. I think you could be a skilled advocate and contribute to the dispute resolution process, so I invite you to consider rejoining us, as I believe the Association would benefit. If you have other concerns, I think it would still help us to understand them, even if you choose not to participate in the AMA. --Michael Snow 19:25, 2 Mar 2004 (UTC)

, with thoughts for the 3rd of march. Ant

Well, it didn't go as planned this time either. Postponed to a later date. Don't know if that is a relief, reprieve or a delicious torture in itself to think that it might have been over, but isn't after all. Still to confront the fear yet again. -- Cimon Avaro on a pogostick 06:32, Mar 4, 2004 (UTC)

Press Release[edit]

I see you contributed to the creation of the press release. Might you be willing to follow these steps, and send off the press release? -- user:zanimum


...for your extremely nice reply -- I appreciate it. BCorr ¤ Брайен 14:10, Mar 5, 2004 (UTC)

Thanks for the help[edit]

Thanks. I think I picked up the vandal who has been haunting Graham/Francs2000. - Texture 23:40, 5 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Finland and Nazi Germany[edit]

I was looking at another talk page, and I notice that you posted a message saying that there are people who are convinced that Finland was a facist ally of Nazi Germany. Now which part of that statement do you wish to have false? Finland wasn't facist, that much is true, but it WAS an ally of Nazi Germany. To say anything else is to deny history. It was a co-belligerent in the most nitpicking terms, but I and many others view co-belligerent as just a way of trying to split hairs.

So, do you believe that Finland was allied with the Nazis? David Newton 15:06, 6 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Its not a matter of me believing or not; nor even you representing that you believe. Its a matter of whether the distinction had concrete and real content historically. Which it manifestly did. Allies do not make sure their opponent knows that they are prosecuting a separate war, and refusing to direct their operations in a way which would help their "allies" war aims. Finland did make sure to let Stalin know that the Finns were refusing Hitlers apoplectic pleas to cut the supply lines to Murmansk (by deliberately letting Stalins spies intercept the letters). If you claim that did not happen, you are deluded. If you represent to hold it as insignificant, you are either obtuse or deliberately disingenious. -- Cimon Avaro on a pogostick 18:47, Mar 6, 2004 (UTC)

One definition is allies is "One in helpful association with another". Finland invaded the Soviet Union at roughly the same time as the Germans. It allowed German troops on to its territory. It took part in the siege of Leningrad, in concert with German armies, even though it didn't advance beyond its 1939 borders. It was in helpfull association with Germany, since its actions materially aided Germany's prosecution of its war effort. That is being allies according to the definition I have quoted above.
Do you deny that Finland allowed German troops through its territory to attack the Soviet Union, in and of itself an act of war? Do you deny that Finnish troops were fighting Soviet troops for the best part of three years when German troops were also fighting Soviet troops during that period? Do you deny that Finnish troops helped lay siege to Leningrad?
BTW, just so that you know, I don't have a direct axe to grind on this issue. Finnish attacks against the Soviet Union did nothing that really materially affected the progress of the war against my home country, the United Kingdom. I just find it incredible that people would deny involvement in alliance with a nasty dictatorship. After all, we did it with the Soviets. David Newton 20:00, 6 Mar 2004 (UTC)
It is of course explicitly true that there was a state of war between the Soviet Union and Finland co-evally to the conflict that Germany had with the Soviets. Finland however co-operated with Germany only as much as served its interest, and on several occasions held back when it could have significantly helped Germany prosecute the war, even though a very minor outlay of effort would have been required to perhaps act as a tipping point in crucial battlegrounds. The siege of Leningrad is a perfect example of how Finland "telegraphed" to Stalin that Finland was waging a "separate war" from Germany. Along with refusing to cut the Murmansk supply lines, the Finns reticience in helping with the siege of Leningrad was probably the thing that gave Hitler the most gray hairs in their co-belligerent relationship.
It is largely in recognition of this manifest reality, that frex the US never broke diplomatic relations with Finland during the conflict, even though they might understandably have felt that emphasizing the "bravery" of Finland in standing up to the Soviet Union would not have been quite congrous with itself co-operating with the Soviet Union against Germany.
An amusing, but illustrative anecdote about the depth of "alliance" between our countries is the story about Mannerheims birthday. Hitler "self-invited" himself to the party (that is he appeared out of the blue, unannounced).

Once the dinner was over, Mannerheim brought out the cigars, and blew cigar smoke in Hitlers face, knowing that Adolf could not abide tobacco smoke, but as Mannerheim was the host, there was nothing Hitler could do about it. -- Cimon Avaro on a pogostick 21:47, Mar 6, 2004 (UTC)


  1. I can't. I can only make sysops, not the opposite
  2. That is not the proper way to request deadminship
  3. I can only assume that if you are doing something as silly as protecting my talk page that you are not thinking straight and therefore I should not pay any attention to such a request

What is wrong? Angela. 13:16, Mar 7, 2004 (UTC)

Close the eyes, think of the picture and breath Cimon....